The unbearable lightness of Sarah Hoyt...
Here:
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2015/03/07/cake-or-death/
and first here
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2015/03/06/winter-at-valley-forge/
Sarah Hoyt argues that not merely is the tea Party aligned group of people making enough progress that it should keep on doing what they are doing, but that it is a false flag effort which has put the piquancy in to the current talk of a 3rd party effort.
Well, as I must, I fisk below.
"that haven’t I seen that Boehner is the worst thing evah, evah, and the only choice is to start shooting."
It's a strawman she's defending against to pick out the least and worst of the arguments against her viewpoint without dealing with the best of them.
“What are you going to gain by this?”
Actual change for the better instead of what the GOP has produces over the last 100 years.
"It let up a little after November (had to, right?)"
Not if it was really a flase flag operation, which it isn't.
"Look, I’m the ... the executive orders?”
You don’t love it enough to push them into taking the steps required to do it, do you? What do you love more? Evidently, matters as they are.
“And yep, the press will paint us as just impeaching democrats not because they’re bottomless pits of corruption, but because we disagree with them.”
If you concede the nation to LIVs, then there is no point to any effort at all, is there?
“Our side is afraid of the nuclear option. Yes, it’s stupid. But our side is."
And if stupid can't be fixed, it seems you don't want a different side? If it can be fixed, you don't want the steps required to accomplish it to be taken.
"And if you don’t fund the DHS now, you get to be blamed by Obama when his several setups for an attack pay off.”
That’ll happen unless we give him whatever he wants, and I certainly won’t support giving him whatever he wants, why do you, Sarah? If you will, how is the false flag not yours?
“If you don’t do that, consider there’s a good chance you’re being played by the usual way the media reports such things.”
It’s not the MSM doing that reporting Sarah. Why do you want us to disbelieve the rightmost? Are you carrying a false flag Sarah?
“What is more important, HOW is your magical party going to avoid the fate of the Tea Party which got demonized with LIVs in… two years? Tops?"
Why do you pretend the LIV's are even in play? Who cares if we are demonized in the eyes of people who will never vote for anyone but Democrats anyway?
"Yeah, the Republican brand sucks. So will any other that is not democrat.”
Hah! Patrick H. had the reply for that a long time ago. If this be suckage. make the most of it!
Not, Sarah, the least of it.
“WHY WOULD THEY?"
The GOP Establishment won't. They'll vanish. The GOP, Sarah, is us. We won't vanish.
"What you’re saying is “I’m going to keep the dems in power for the rest of our natural lives.”"
Not at all. The nation won't last the rest of my or your natural life at this rate, and it is no rate the GOP is currently constituted shows any signs of modifying in the slightest. It has been utterly ineffective over the course of the last 100 years, why do you think that will change in 10 years, if we don't shatter the premises of the party as it exists? How do you think we best shatter those premises, if not by mounting the most credible 3rd party threat we can? I don't shape steel by letting it rest on the anvil even at white heat--I hit it with a sledge.
"You know what ... the loyal opposition."
Then let them honestly seek their most natural home, you dolt.
"Have you considered ... out of line?”
A perfectly credible part of a 3rd party effort.
“As for “let ... a brutal dictatorship.”
Learn from American history, Sarah, not Europe’s. It’s on fire now, and you bid us to quietly support those who want to add cups but not gallons of gasoline to the fire, where the only reasonable and sane option is to support those who want to get an extinguisher.
“Guys, I lived ... to do something.”
Who cares if that's what the Democrat centers scream for, if it comes to it? Let them scream.
They'll scream anyway, it's where the 120 to 220 trillion in unfunded liabilities are geographically concentrated. It's on fire now, the question is what are you prepared to do to stop stacking up fuel? Evidently, not shove the Establishment GOP hard enough to get it done.
"Humanity is disastrously prone to the man on the white horse syndrome. Pray we don’t get one here."
Been there, done that, got George Washington. I'm prepared to let our future history rhyme with 1775, and if it won't, what's the point in putting off the inevitable?
"All modern insurrection movements end up doing things like bombing school buses. "
That might be the way YOU'D do it.
"But if we go that way, the chances are that 90% of the outcomes are that it will burn.”
WILL? It’s on fire now dear.
“I’m saying we need something like the tea parties (we can even call it the same and tell the mass media to stow it.)”
Oh! What a brave heart you!
“So they can start behaving, or we’ll pull them down.”
No better way to do that than to create the most credible 3rd party threat we can. No. Way. Better.
“not accidentally lend weight to the other side by making our squishes think the left is their only hope."
If they are that close to doing it, we are better of without them.
"And we need to work. At media, at education, at entertainment. The tide is turning, and pushing the boat in now will work."
The GOP Establishment is actually Canute, commanding it to be still. Unlike Canute, they can actually do something like say, preserving an anti-amnesty bill from an Obama veto because they actually wasn't the amnesty. You know, the straw that broke the camel's back with respect to a lot of what you are baselessly or dishonestly calling a false flag effort.
"Is it less satisfying than the other options. Oh, for sure. I too sometimes just want the grand, simple solution."
Actually, what is wanted is something which can work, unlike voting GOP Establishment, which hasn't worked for 100 or more years.
“ Life is more usually a choice between shit and slightly more shit.”
And you are picking the more option.
“It took them 100 years to get here. 100. “
100 years when the Establishment GOP has been either utterly ineffective or even on the Democrat's side. The one part of the leftist’s agenda which has been partly reversed with some appearance of permanence is the 86 AWB, which was allowed to sunset by the Establishment GOP Bush. It was actually allowed to go into place by Reagan, who admittedly had other fish to fry. That’s one piece of the leftist agenda, every other piece has been steadily advanced for 100 years.
100 years.
Time to try something else, Sarah.
“We’ve been fighting for 6."
Nope, we've been here for the whole 100 years Sarah. History didn't start in 2008. I know you've decided to be pigheadedly stupid about this, but even you surely will shrink from attempting to substitute your wishes for reality.
"Why is third party or letting it burn such an almighty hurry?"
Because the next crash is likely to be the last where the dollar is what crashes. 120 trillion to 220 trillion in unfunded liabilities. Grow Up Sarah. Let's let the GOP Establishment play roulette with the market, Putin, and Beijing holding the trigger. We're under no obligation to stay in front of that muzzle. We can represent an actual alternative instead.
"If it comes to fighting, I’ll fight.”
No you won’t, you won’t fight now, why would you later?
“Ask yourself “What do you expect to accomplish with this?””
The most pressure possible to force the GOP Establishment from power, without which there is no effective opposition to the Democrats, as the last 100 years show very well.
“I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.”
You seem not to consider the same with respect to your position, although the last 100 years reproach you.
With respect to the GOP Establishment, I also quote Cromwell:
“You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately ... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"
And the most credible 3rd party effort which can be mounted is the best way to accomplish it.
The trigger need not be pulled every time for it to be effective, but it must be built into a credible gun.
The Tea Party should mount primaries in which it chooses a single candidate to try to depose not merely the least conservative of GOP Establishment candidates in otherwise safe districts, it should sponsor long-shots in the bluest of Dem territory and should under the Tea Party name, announcing ahead of time the intention to caucus with Republicans if elected, split the nominal GOP vote in what should be safe GOP territory, and make the Establishment chose between conceding the seat to the Dems...
...or resigning the fight to the Tea Party candidate.
We can spare a few seats, pour encourage les autres.
The GOP Establishment has been spoiling attempts to return the nation to even vaguely constitutional governance for 100 years. Be willing to make them own it, or as useless as they've been, make them in the name of God go, is not spoiling any election that isn't already spoilt.
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2015/03/07/cake-or-death/
and first here
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2015/03/06/winter-at-valley-forge/
Sarah Hoyt argues that not merely is the tea Party aligned group of people making enough progress that it should keep on doing what they are doing, but that it is a false flag effort which has put the piquancy in to the current talk of a 3rd party effort.
Well, as I must, I fisk below.
"that haven’t I seen that Boehner is the worst thing evah, evah, and the only choice is to start shooting."
It's a strawman she's defending against to pick out the least and worst of the arguments against her viewpoint without dealing with the best of them.
“What are you going to gain by this?”
Actual change for the better instead of what the GOP has produces over the last 100 years.
"It let up a little after November (had to, right?)"
Not if it was really a flase flag operation, which it isn't.
"Look, I’m the ... the executive orders?”
You don’t love it enough to push them into taking the steps required to do it, do you? What do you love more? Evidently, matters as they are.
“And yep, the press will paint us as just impeaching democrats not because they’re bottomless pits of corruption, but because we disagree with them.”
If you concede the nation to LIVs, then there is no point to any effort at all, is there?
“Our side is afraid of the nuclear option. Yes, it’s stupid. But our side is."
And if stupid can't be fixed, it seems you don't want a different side? If it can be fixed, you don't want the steps required to accomplish it to be taken.
"And if you don’t fund the DHS now, you get to be blamed by Obama when his several setups for an attack pay off.”
That’ll happen unless we give him whatever he wants, and I certainly won’t support giving him whatever he wants, why do you, Sarah? If you will, how is the false flag not yours?
“If you don’t do that, consider there’s a good chance you’re being played by the usual way the media reports such things.”
It’s not the MSM doing that reporting Sarah. Why do you want us to disbelieve the rightmost? Are you carrying a false flag Sarah?
“What is more important, HOW is your magical party going to avoid the fate of the Tea Party which got demonized with LIVs in… two years? Tops?"
Why do you pretend the LIV's are even in play? Who cares if we are demonized in the eyes of people who will never vote for anyone but Democrats anyway?
"Yeah, the Republican brand sucks. So will any other that is not democrat.”
Hah! Patrick H. had the reply for that a long time ago. If this be suckage. make the most of it!
Not, Sarah, the least of it.
“WHY WOULD THEY?"
The GOP Establishment won't. They'll vanish. The GOP, Sarah, is us. We won't vanish.
"What you’re saying is “I’m going to keep the dems in power for the rest of our natural lives.”"
Not at all. The nation won't last the rest of my or your natural life at this rate, and it is no rate the GOP is currently constituted shows any signs of modifying in the slightest. It has been utterly ineffective over the course of the last 100 years, why do you think that will change in 10 years, if we don't shatter the premises of the party as it exists? How do you think we best shatter those premises, if not by mounting the most credible 3rd party threat we can? I don't shape steel by letting it rest on the anvil even at white heat--I hit it with a sledge.
"You know what ... the loyal opposition."
Then let them honestly seek their most natural home, you dolt.
"Have you considered ... out of line?”
A perfectly credible part of a 3rd party effort.
“As for “let ... a brutal dictatorship.”
Learn from American history, Sarah, not Europe’s. It’s on fire now, and you bid us to quietly support those who want to add cups but not gallons of gasoline to the fire, where the only reasonable and sane option is to support those who want to get an extinguisher.
“Guys, I lived ... to do something.”
Who cares if that's what the Democrat centers scream for, if it comes to it? Let them scream.
They'll scream anyway, it's where the 120 to 220 trillion in unfunded liabilities are geographically concentrated. It's on fire now, the question is what are you prepared to do to stop stacking up fuel? Evidently, not shove the Establishment GOP hard enough to get it done.
"Humanity is disastrously prone to the man on the white horse syndrome. Pray we don’t get one here."
Been there, done that, got George Washington. I'm prepared to let our future history rhyme with 1775, and if it won't, what's the point in putting off the inevitable?
"All modern insurrection movements end up doing things like bombing school buses. "
That might be the way YOU'D do it.
"But if we go that way, the chances are that 90% of the outcomes are that it will burn.”
WILL? It’s on fire now dear.
“I’m saying we need something like the tea parties (we can even call it the same and tell the mass media to stow it.)”
Oh! What a brave heart you!
“So they can start behaving, or we’ll pull them down.”
No better way to do that than to create the most credible 3rd party threat we can. No. Way. Better.
“not accidentally lend weight to the other side by making our squishes think the left is their only hope."
If they are that close to doing it, we are better of without them.
"And we need to work. At media, at education, at entertainment. The tide is turning, and pushing the boat in now will work."
The GOP Establishment is actually Canute, commanding it to be still. Unlike Canute, they can actually do something like say, preserving an anti-amnesty bill from an Obama veto because they actually wasn't the amnesty. You know, the straw that broke the camel's back with respect to a lot of what you are baselessly or dishonestly calling a false flag effort.
"Is it less satisfying than the other options. Oh, for sure. I too sometimes just want the grand, simple solution."
Actually, what is wanted is something which can work, unlike voting GOP Establishment, which hasn't worked for 100 or more years.
“ Life is more usually a choice between shit and slightly more shit.”
And you are picking the more option.
“It took them 100 years to get here. 100. “
100 years when the Establishment GOP has been either utterly ineffective or even on the Democrat's side. The one part of the leftist’s agenda which has been partly reversed with some appearance of permanence is the 86 AWB, which was allowed to sunset by the Establishment GOP Bush. It was actually allowed to go into place by Reagan, who admittedly had other fish to fry. That’s one piece of the leftist agenda, every other piece has been steadily advanced for 100 years.
100 years.
Time to try something else, Sarah.
“We’ve been fighting for 6."
Nope, we've been here for the whole 100 years Sarah. History didn't start in 2008. I know you've decided to be pigheadedly stupid about this, but even you surely will shrink from attempting to substitute your wishes for reality.
"Why is third party or letting it burn such an almighty hurry?"
Because the next crash is likely to be the last where the dollar is what crashes. 120 trillion to 220 trillion in unfunded liabilities. Grow Up Sarah. Let's let the GOP Establishment play roulette with the market, Putin, and Beijing holding the trigger. We're under no obligation to stay in front of that muzzle. We can represent an actual alternative instead.
"If it comes to fighting, I’ll fight.”
No you won’t, you won’t fight now, why would you later?
“Ask yourself “What do you expect to accomplish with this?””
The most pressure possible to force the GOP Establishment from power, without which there is no effective opposition to the Democrats, as the last 100 years show very well.
“I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.”
You seem not to consider the same with respect to your position, although the last 100 years reproach you.
With respect to the GOP Establishment, I also quote Cromwell:
“You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately ... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"
And the most credible 3rd party effort which can be mounted is the best way to accomplish it.
The trigger need not be pulled every time for it to be effective, but it must be built into a credible gun.
The Tea Party should mount primaries in which it chooses a single candidate to try to depose not merely the least conservative of GOP Establishment candidates in otherwise safe districts, it should sponsor long-shots in the bluest of Dem territory and should under the Tea Party name, announcing ahead of time the intention to caucus with Republicans if elected, split the nominal GOP vote in what should be safe GOP territory, and make the Establishment chose between conceding the seat to the Dems...
...or resigning the fight to the Tea Party candidate.
We can spare a few seats, pour encourage les autres.
The GOP Establishment has been spoiling attempts to return the nation to even vaguely constitutional governance for 100 years. Be willing to make them own it, or as useless as they've been, make them in the name of God go, is not spoiling any election that isn't already spoilt.
posted by Tom Perkins at 3/08/2015
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